Curse

Jetdoc · Dec 10, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

I actually don't think there's anything wrong with PvE turning into a single-player game. I'd wager that the majority of the players only care about getting rare items and being rich anyway, so whether they complete the story on their own or with a party is irrelevant. They're going to be spending the rest of their GW lives solo-farming in the newest areas anyway.

I absolutely disagree with this. Guild Wars is advertised and intended to be a multiplayer game at its core - and frankly, many single player, offline games are far superior to Guild Wars in many, many aspects.

If the attitudes against other players and gravitating towards NPC's is something that A-Net either ignores or actually promotes, I would guess many, many players will simply abandon the game in the next chapter. A-Net must realize this and the danger it poses for this franchise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Warrior

If we all started making groups in the game and avoiding using heros as much, GURU could change it, GURU could start the spark that led to a fire. We alone as a community, could get this entire problem straightened out! Before you know it, you can't go into an outpost with seeing someone forming a group for a quest in your log.

The problem with this is:

1. The members of this forum represent a relatively small portion of the gaming community, AND

2. A substantial portion of this forum's posters (especially evidenced in this thread) do NOT want to play with other players. They would rather have a single-player PvE game, and have decided to make Guild Wars their single-player game.

Carth` · Dec 10, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I absolutely disagree with this. Guild Wars is advertised and intended to be a multiplayer game at its core - and frankly, many single player, offline games are far superior to Guild Wars in many, many aspects.

Exactly!

Loviatar · Dec 10, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

2. A substantial portion of this forum's posters (especially evidenced in this thread) do NOT want to play with other players. They would rather have a single-player PvE game, and have decided to make Guild Wars their single-player game.

hi

i have been here and other sites since early beta.

at 19 official /age months i can say that while other wars have erupted and dyed out (UAS/LEVELS/ETC) there have been 2 intertwined issues that never stopped being posted on.

1 fix the henchies

2 my bad PUG experiance.

those 2 went together and if you remember and think about it......

every hench improvement resulted in a reduction of PUGs as people were finally able (at least for this part) to ditch the literally in some cases hated jerk PUG

the henchies are core to the game to either fill out or REPLACE other players.

it was intended from the start that some would play it single player.

the rush to heroes only shows that there are a lot who wish to keep on playing GW but not with the current community providing the cesspool to choose your PUG from.

ashe5k · Dec 10, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I've had MANY bad experiences with PUGs, especially with my main character being an ELE. From warriors bringing back entire mobs for me to tank to people quitting, etc.

Lately I've picked up a PUG here or there to try a few things, but for the most part they've ended in disaster. It was in Nightfall in the hidden city and 3 or four runs that we ended up dead on. The monk and I ended up forming our own group and filled up the rest with our Heroes and did it that way. Did it again the same way with someone else later. The only other one that really hasn't ended in disaster was when I took my 3 heroes and my monk out with a human Ele and a human Necro to work on a quest out of Ventari's Refuge. It went smoothly and quickly but I only had two human players in the group and my 3 heroes to keep healed up. The heroes had alot fo stuff to help keep their healing up but I could tell the players either had lower level armor or didn't have themselves padded out with some helaing of their own.

Most of the rest of the time I'm out on my own. I'll play with my son and wife when they're on and a friend or two and to get on a district and chat, but for the most part I'm out on my own to get things done. I've played it that way since I started in Prophecies and it works well for me.

There's alot to be desired in the way you form groups in towns and chat and even the way you communicate with players in the game which is why I end up playing alone most of the time. I get to play at my own pace and I don't get dragged into doing something I really didn't want to be involved with anyway.

I don't have alot of time to play usually (between 1 - 3 hours a day if I'm lucky or 12 hours a week) and before finding a PUG that would take an ele would take up precious play time for me and then I'd end up being the jerk that had to leave in the middle of whatever we were doing.

Thallandor · Dec 11, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I dont blame Anet or the implementation of Heros for the current lack of player interaction within the game community.

If anything, Heros were something we asked for as a community. Players choose to play with only Hero+hench because they want to.

But having said the above, i have also come to understand/appreciate better the point of view of the causal social players and why they are suffering.

Heros and Henching are great for players who traditonally play with Hencies or those who are used to leading/forming parties to attempt missions and quest. However, what most of us may fail to realise is that there exist players who:

1)play only casually.
2)play only a selected no. of classes.
3)play to socialize.
4)Dont like to play alone.
5)Dont like to lead party.
6)Who are not forum Savvy.
7)Have little understanding of how other classes work well in a party.
8)Have little understanding on how to effectively control heroHench team.

Ironically while the Hero implementation caters to causal players in theory, it had instead set off a chain reaction of gaming Isolationism amoung the gaming community.

My personal view on this is perhaps not to remove Heros, infact further chapters should also support heros as well since they are a great tool as fillers for a party, but rather significantly improve grouping functions, such that social players who rather play with other humans players can identifty each other easily and group up with minimal hassle and time. This i believe will truely bring back the Muliplayer aspect of the game back into GuildWars.

________________________________________
Behold Thallandor has spoken... haha Jking

Hell Marauder · Dec 11, 2006, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

A substantial portion of this forum's posters (especially evidenced in this thread) do NOT want to play with other players. They would rather have a single-player PvE game, and have decided to make Guild Wars their single-player game.

It's also partly due to GW as an instanced game with drops getting divided among team members. The tendency in elite areas has always been like this:
1) Beat the mission with whatever it takes
2) Beat the mission with least amount of time
3) Beat the mission with fewer members in the team, so to maximize loots
4) Solo or dual team to maximize loots even more

So the bottom line is people are greedy and impatient. The fact that you can't communicate through typing while in combat, doesn't help either. I wish there's a feature that stops all combat whenever a team member types something. Another aspect of GW's being a one-dimensional game is that all GW's skills are combat-related, as there's no social or life skill like lockpicking/trading/lore/crafting etc, for us to take a break from combat. So most activities in GW's pve world involve fighting and more fighting. If only we have a larger purpose to fight for, something that binds us as a community like taking a side in a global persisting war, but too bad we don't even have that. I feel that GW is at a crossroad right now; it needs something to galvanize players to rally to form a community. It needs to give people reasons to play together.

Omega X · Dec 11, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I would like to see:

1. Make it so entering a new area, whether by map travel, going through the portal, or completing a mission, causes all henchmen AND heroes to be kicked. If you are in a human party you stay together, but if you are playing by yourself, upon entering an area, you appear by yourself. I think this because it annoys me every time I enter a full district of 50 players, all with an 8 above their head. There isn't even a chance to form a party. And your heroes stay in your party even after you log out, or when you click "Leave". I'm sick of having to kick them one at a time.

Auto kicking of henches/heroes when mapping won't happen. They will just end up making a lot of players mad. However the click "Leave" part is a good idea.

Quote:

2. Make max. number of heroes in a party per player 1 or 2.

Also most likely won't happen. What if no one is there to party with? You are stuck until someone comes along.

Quote:

3. Add an improved system for making a group. It needs to be integrated into the game with its own window. A list of people LFG, what profession, maybe what build and what they want a group for. A list of groups, who is in it, and what they still need. I hate people who just say "lf monk". You can tell it's group of randomly invited players without any thought, and now want a monk to keep them alive, and they don't even say what quest/area they want the monk for. Or worse, they don't even say anything, and just randomly invite you.

This I agree with.

Quote:

Hey, you remember henchmen? You could complete both games with them. People would usually group with people, but if none were around, you could use henchmen. So that is not a good reason for creating the hero system. I don't care what people say, before heroes people played together, after they don't. Therefore, heroes killed teamplay.

Heroes only added extra functionality to henches. The method to which they are included in missions was kind of flaky. But Heroes didn't cause extra use of Henches/Heroes. Bad PuGs caused it. Forcing people to play with other people will just create problems. And Players will leave because nothing can be accomplished in the game.

And to say in a variation of your own words, I don't care what people say. People played together, most of the time very BADLY. When a solution came along, people tired of it jumped ship for the better. Therefore, Bad PuGs killed teamplay.

Throttle · Dec 11, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Q: Why do I play with channels off?
A: Ridiculous spam everywhere I go. People are allowed to sell/buy of course, but it seems that most people try to do it by out-spamming eachother. This ruins the channels completely. Some "clever" players have even found out that a lot of people turn their trade channel off, so in an idiotic attempt to bypass this, they spam both local and trade.

Q: Why do I play with heroes/henchies instead of players?
A: Out of every 100 players I meet, at least 90 of them are severely retarded, don't speak english or are not good enough at playing the game to be where they are. That's the honest truth.

Q: Do I hate other players?
A: I don't by default hate other players, but when practically every encounter I have with another player is negative, either because they're an idiot, don't speak english or want to cheat me in some way, I think it's fair that I shun away from anyone who hasn't proven to be a decent person.

So in conclusion, my personal experience says that the vast majority of GW's playerbase are selfish, stupid, or otherwise not suited to play the game with other people. That's why the good players have clustered up in guilds and cliques who only interact with others when it's absolutely necessary.

Helcaraxe · Dec 11, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

It is impossible to cure people. I would absolutely love it if I could get a real group for every quest in my log. And back in the day, I could. When I first got GW about 11 months ago, it was not hard to get a 'questing' group out of ascalon to run around and do all the random side quests. Now it is difficult to even get a group for missions.

In prophecies I never had REALLY bad experiences with PuG's. It was usually just one person (usually a wammo >_<) that screwed everything up. We failed the mission, kicked the idiot and tried again. Not that frustrating really. In factions it got a little worse, everyone had the "mesmers suck, assassins suck" thing goin on. And the ability to PuG was lessened. In NF now no one wants to PuG for anything because they view everyone else as retarded. However, if you sit down and talk to someone individually you will find that they are not retarded.

There is no way to cure hatred, we are stuck with it. People just need to start experimenting with PuGs again... 'cause frankly THEY ARE NOT THAT BAD!

Navaros · Dec 11, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helcaraxe

People just need to start experimenting with PuGs again... 'cause frankly THEY ARE NOT THAT BAD!

I would guess that your experience is not at all typical of most players'.

When I PUG'ed in NF the vast majority of the time the PUGs got wiped several times in a row.

When I did the same exact Mission with Heroes and Henchmen, usually it's a breeze to get Master on the very first try. That speaks heavily to just how horrible most PUGs are.

I think a lot of the posts in this thread about "rudeness" do not accurately reflect why most people don't join PUGs. Rudeness is a secondary factor to incompetent playing by allies that causes total failure - which is the primary reason why most people don't PUG and should never be forced to PUG.

Sanji · Dec 11, 2006, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Multiplayer doesn't mean that the game has to force you to play with strangers no matter what you choose to do. People play with strangers should only do so because they want to, there should be no encouragement or discouragement on that matter.

Just like you don't point at people at a bowling ally and go "Hey, you, bring your ball over here and let's play" or sit down at a swing and yell until someone starts to push you, you can't expect people to join you just because you want them to.

I seriously doubt it's possible to have a match making service in cooperative games that makes the social element unnecessary.

Priest Of Sin · Dec 11, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Alright... I like playing with people, dont get me wrong. But my job (omfg a real life!!?! WTF!?!) sometimes makes it so that i'm on at seriously effed up hours. Like now, for instance. There are few people doing missions, and getting in a group will be hell. Thus, I just take my heroes, henchies, and maybe one guildie who is also a nightowl. Besides, henchies are all around better than an assassin tank xD

cellardweller · Dec 11, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Only one thing could make me PuG again - a good player match system. And I mean Player Matching not Character Matching. I want to see something like "38yo, enjoys champagne at midnight and long walks on the beach n/s s/d" not "Uber leet monk 145Million xp".

tomcruisejr · Dec 11, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Only one thing could make me PuG again - a good player match system. And I mean Player Matching not Character Matching. I want to see something like "38yo, enjoys champagne at midnight and long walks on the beach n/s s/d" not "Uber leet monk 145Million xp".

that's actually a good idea!

Khaunshar · Dec 11, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I like to play with others.... unfortunately, not if they outright suck. And I absolutely loathe perma-afk leechers who get the free ride.

So right now, since the average player is so horrendously bad, I dont bother PUGging. I think times will change if GW becomes harder, and the playerbase, on average, better players. As long as they cannot even match the limited hero AI, why should I bother wasting time with PUGs that just annoy me ?

I mean, most people dont seem to even change their build according to the needs of the mission

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

I didnt read most of that, because I dont like long posts and I get bored easily.

But if the gist of the thread is that no one places with other humans?

There isnt really anyone to blame for this, other then other humans.

Its a sad fact that 9/10 human parties you get into are useless.

Cos...

1) Atleast one player in the team is arrogant, and wants to lead you down the wrong path because they think they know better.
2) One member wants to rush the mission and agro's everything in sight despite not needing to, usually leading to killing everyone.
3) Most people refuse to follow instructions which are meant to help and save the team, despite you having done that missions 100 times and knowing it inside and out.
4) No one ever listens to /resign.
5) It can take up to an hour just to try and get a party together, especially when people refuse to use Heroes or they want a "real monk".
6) Most teams try to force a build on you and chuck you out if you refuse.
7) You always typically have your gung-hoe player whos all "gogogogo" and rushes in.
8) You ask them if their doing the bonus, then start and they change their mind because its "a bit tough".
9) You ask for Masters and they move at a snails pase and die every 2 minutes.
10) A general bickering in the group.

Its very rare that you get a good team together who dont cause hassle and its satisfying to play with.

Thats why Ive dont 90% of prophercies, factions and NF with henches and heroes.

Ive only chosen to use Humans when wanting Masters, bonuses and end game missions.

I dont see it as being something we can fix, because people wont change. You will always have elitism, arrogant idiots, trigger happy warriors, know-it-alls, and people who just do their own thing.

Heroes are a god-send and im happy for them.

geekling · Dec 11, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

What are possible ways to rebreath "cooperative" into this game. How could it possibly be achieved to put a stronger focus on Teamplay? How could the hatred between the players be cured?
Do you think the Multiplayer Aspect is just fine? Is it lacking? Dead? Barely ressurected? You get the point what this thread is about.

As have been mentioned by several, an improve looking for group system that does not rely on having to contend with the spammed to kingdom come local chat would help.

As would, how even counter intuitative it might sound, a kick and replace with hero in explorable areas feature.
Certain safeguards to minimize abuse needs to be put in place of course, like removing the possibility of kicking a player to steal that player's drops. And the replacement hero coming in with the same DP as the kicked player. No kicking the other players close to the end to replace them with fresh no-DP affected heroes for the big boss fight.

Just think about it.
If you could kick a player and replace it with a hero after you've left an outpost. Wouldn't that make you more likely to take a chance and invite that 'lfg - guy' in an outpost?
You're not stuck with him (if you and the group are too far in to want to return to an outpost and start over again) should he turn out to be a leecher going AFK halfway through the mission, turn out to be a complete twat - abusing the other team members. Or just simply not measure up to your standards as you find that your play styles does not mesh.

I think it would perhaps even help the community at whole.

The main problem with the current GW communtiy is the anonymity and complete lack of acountability for your actions. This is coupled with the sad fact that the majority of GW players just are not mature enough to be able to handle that freedom.
Even a small thing like a kick feature in explorable areas would bring in a hint of that acountability thing. If you act like a moron, you face the risk of getting kicked out of every single group you join. Bringing the realisation that your actions = consequences even in GW, even if mom's not around to ground you if you go out of line - to those that are not mature enough to come to this realisation on their own.

I think it is even possible that the effects of every now and then having to face up to the concequences of how you act, would spill over into the general community. It can do nothing but improve it, 'cause frankly it's not like it could get much worse.

A title track to reward those that complete missions with human parties. Each human in your party at the completion of a mission counts for 1 point towards a title. - Sort of thing.
It doesn't penalise those that would rather play in single-player mode, but a title is a nice little perk that might give those on the fence a bump toward joining up with humans rather than AIs.

There, three things I think might help to revive the multiplayer aspect of the game.

freekedoutfish · Dec 11, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekling

Just think about it.
If you could kick a player and replace it with a hero after you've left an outpost. Wouldn't that make you more likely to take a chance and invite that 'lfg - guy' in an outpost?
You're not stuck with him (if you and the group are too far in to want to return to an outpost and start over again) should he turn out to be a leecher going AFK halfway through the mission, turn out to be a complete twat - abusing the other team members. Or just simply not measure up to your standards as you find that your play styles does not mesh.

I think it would perhaps even help the community at whole.

Soooo not a good idea.

You must know that we have too much elitism and arrogance in GuildWars as it is. You enter a party and someone asks "do you have this skill", "are you using this build" and if you give the wrong reply your kicked and back to spending an hour finding a team.

Despite the fact you probably have a good build, but it just doesnt fit into their small-narrow-minded ideals of what a good team is.

If we allow people to randomly kick others from an instance or a mission and have them be replaced by a Hero or Hench, then we're incouraging this.

People would know that if they didnt "do as their told" and they didnt bring the skill, or use the build they were ordered to, they could be kicked mid-mission.

This is such as bad idea. People would be scared to set a foot wrong, incase they got punished.

You would be giving the arrogant, elite in this game allllll the power. You wouldnt be able to experiment with different builds or skills or weapon sets because they wouldnt fix what the others wanted.

/notsigned a million times over

I appreciate the fact that we sometimes get morons in a team and it would be nice to kick them, but this would get abused and the innocent amoungst us would be punished.

They should how ever replace "leavers" with Heroes of equilivant skills and build though.

aohige · Dec 11, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Divinor

Personally, I belive heroes have ruined - yes, runied - Guild Wars. The whole aspect of being able to complete a game, without playing with other players. Has, in my eyes, destroyed the community completely.

PUG wise, I've never hated them. Up until recently. Most PUG's seems to have a lack fo respect for fellow players and constantly spam comments like: "OMFG!!! You n00b - your a f***** waste of time. N00b!" Shortly followed by '[users name] has left.'

I really, really hope the next chapters brings back the community and social aspect of Guild Wars. Nightfall hasn't helped the community at all, and I hope the 4th chapter doesn't follow suit. Like I said, I really hope the next chapters gives the community a kick up the backside and encourages them to play with other players.

It's not like you couldn't beat Hell's Precipice with henchies.
I found henchies to be more useful than most PUGs.... even back in the Tyrian days. All Heroes did, was to enlarge that gap.
Lack of respect? Yeah, that's been around for two years too. From the very start of Guildwars, there were many jerks who discriminate others by classess, wether they are in a guild or not, and even armor graphics.

I don't really feel any problems with less numbers of PUG, mainly because I play either solo, with friends, or guildies. I gave all hopes up on PUG 2 years ago. It's nothing new.

geekling · Dec 11, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Soooo not a good idea.

That is your opinion and I almost respect that. It is a reaction based on fear, a very human emotion.
You are wrong though.

Quote:

You would be giving the arrogant, elite in this game allllll the power. You wouldnt be able to experiment with different builds or skills or weapon sets because they wouldnt fix what the others wanted.

I'm not saying that a few would not abuse it. But the benefits for the bulk of the guildwars players would outweight the inconvenience caused by those twats by a mulitude of, well... lots.

You would be more likely to get into a group with an experimental build.
The elitist, arrogant players in this game would not chance it - of course not. They'd still kick you as soon as you ping your skill bar and it does not conform to the accepted standard. Just as they do right now. No change there.

But if you have a kick feature, you'd get into groups on the basis of; What the hell, if it doesn't work out. I don't have to start all over again. So it's not like I loose anything. And if it does work out - great!
Because now, with the heroes. They're just not bothering with playing the gamble of taking an unknown when they can play it safe with heroes or wait for a player build they know works.